The Council of Elders:
Tapping the Wisdom of the Vatican II Archbishops
ARCHBISHOP FRANCIS HURLEY
Profile and Summary of the Interview
Frank Cunningham and Loughlan Sofield conducted the interview in his home in Anchorage, Alaska on May 18, 2005.
Archbishop Francis Hurley is eighty years of age. He was ordained a priest of the Archdiocese of San Francisco in 1951. Archbishop Hurley was the General Secretary of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops from 1950-1970. He was ordained Bishop of Juneau in 1970 and Archbishop of Anchorage in 1976. His older brother, Mark, was also a bishop. Both Juneau and Anchorage are missionary dioceses. Archbishop Hurley was responsible for a parish in Russia.
Issues Identified
I. On society’s perception of major issues.
A. The media project that the major issues are abortion, birth control,
same-sex marriages and ordination of women.
B. These are not the major issues for the majority of people. “Most
of our people are not upset about these issues. They know how to live with
them and handle them because they are dealing with these issues all the
time and living with them.”
C. Archbishop Hurley spoke of how his own extended family has handled such
issues.
II. On a suggested approach for dealing with such issues.
A. Archbishop Hurley described his approach for dealing with such politically
charged issues such as same sex marriages. “We would address the issue
but not become involved in any campaign.”
B. He has “very serious questions about how active the church should
become in political campaigns. “I’ve never told anyone how to
vote. I would be quite clear where the church stood.”
C. Many times Archbishop Hurley has been criticized for not taking a stronger
position against certain issues.
D. Archbishop Hurley summarizes his approach by using the words of Pope
John XXIII who stated that you persuade: you don’t mandate. He presents
the church’s teaching and where he stands but is opposed to telling
other people what they think or how they should act.
E. “Our number one problem now is educating our Catholics to be able
to talk knowledgeably about civic, societal issues. We don’t have
a lot of control over what issues come up to be addressed…We’re
frequently in the position of responding to what others are saying.”
F. He acknowledges that dealing with such issues is difficult, “How
do you get justice without forcing the legislature to pass legislation.”
G. Archbishop Hurley believes that Catholics want to enter into these discussions
but frequently feel unprepared to do so.
H. Help people to realize that “this is what we should be doing without
giving the impression that this is what people must do.” Archbishop
Hurley did this with one of the civic organizations to which he belonged.
I. He used examples from his own life and involvement in the local civic
community where they establish forums where “everybody could listen
to what every body else was thinking.”
J. One of the major problems is that the Church does a good bit of consulting
but they need to finds ways to “engage” people” and draw
them into the issues.”
K. The process of engaging people is at the center of his pastoral approach.
L. Issues like sexual abuse issue, are “church issues” not just
issues for the bishops. “The whole church is suffering. The question
is, “How should we respond?”
M. The only appropriate response is the response as church.
N. Presently, only the bishops are responding.
O. As a result, many priests and laity feel a certain degree of apathy about
what the bishops say.
P. There are excellent examples of how to foster this engagement in the
pastorals that the bishops wrote in the past, such as the pastorals on peace,
the economy and women. Although the bishops issued the documents, many people
felt an ownership of them because they were truly engaged.
Q. In the present such issues as sexual abuse and the zero tolerance policy
could be addressed in a similar way.
R. The zero tolerance policy has “created a whole new class of victims.”
He is convinced that the process should have started from the position of
forgiveness and reconciliation.
S. He acknowledges his own mistakes in handling sexual abuse issues in the
past. While beginning from the perspective of forgiveness and reconciliation,
he failed to share what he had done with the victim and his family.
T. Another issue which warrants real engagement and dialog with the larger
church is the issue of women.
U. In each of the issues, we must find ways to involve all the people in
the life of the church and “recognize their legitimate place at the
table…even though the bishop still has to have the last and sole word.
I argue with bishops about this and say that you have to have guts enough
to do it.” It begins from the primary question is “Who really
makes up the church? And by right, that includes everyone who is a member
of the church.”
V. There are still issues in the church that are not open for discussion,
such as mandatory celibacy. “I had an interesting experience with
John Paul II. I told him I support mandatory celibacy. But I do think we
should publicly discuss it, because the only side we hear is the adversary
side. If there were a public discussion, I’d be out there saying why
I’m convinced that it is a good decision, always admitting that it
could be changed. I thought a lot about this and he has a point. I’m
sure they are worried about the media and the turmoil we’ve caused.
It could be a zoo. However, that’s who we are. To me it would be better
to go through all that. I don’t think that we would lose one thing.
We would have people respecting one another and acknowledging we have basic
differences. From one point of view it would be a good issue to do it with
because it is strictly a disciplinary law. We already have married priests.
It would be a great discussion. Here’s an opportunity to talk about
human sexuality and all those things. It would be exciting.” He commented
that The Holy Father wasn’t too receptive to the idea.
III. On a creative, practical structure for parishes
A. “The shortage of priests is an ideal issue to address by action,
not by discussion. If you want to have a discussion you will have to deal
with too many legitimate issues and probably never get to the main issue.”
Sometimes we only address these issues when we have been forced into doing
what we should be doing.
B. Archbishop Hurley has been forced to develop unique parish structures
because of the missionary nature of the diocese. He appointed administrators
of parishes and put them fully in charge of the parish, except for those
things that only a priest could do. They took complete responsibility for
“their parish.”
C. He described what he referred to as a “canonical pastor.”
He would tell the canonical pastors, “Don’t get in the way but
I want you to be available and to move in if something is not right. I don’t
need you to report directly to me. I have the staff person, the administrator
for that.”
D. Some of these lay administrators were representatives at the consultors
meeting.
E. Many of the changes he made were accepted because of the smallness of
the diocese. The people have generally accepted the changes.
F. In the model that he proposed the administrators are basically community
organizers. The priest is the community leader. Most of the original administrators
were women religious. “We need to have training programs for our laity.
“Most people who want to get into this type of ministry want more
education. They are intellectually curious.”
G. Archbishop Hurley begins from the conviction, “As long as you have
a bishop, you have a priest.”
H. The present reality is putting a tremendous drain on the priests. Archbishop
Hurley has been considering the concept of “a sacristy priest.”
Archbishop Hurley is beginning to rethink his negative connotation of that
image. The centrality of the priesthood now is Christ, the Eucharist and
the sacraments. “That’s where the priest has to be. He’s
going to be much more like a sacristy priest. I’m a convert to this
concept.”
I. When people get a great experience of liturgy they come.
J. “When people come to Mass on Sunday, they come as a community of
baptized people, as a community of faith. They don’t become a community.”
K. At one of the USCCB meetings he made a proposal to consider “a
Mass priest” “There was absolutely no response and never even
a word afterward.” Archbishop Hurley admits that it may be “a
screwy idea.” He is not totally convinced of its viability. However,
he is convinced that the church needs to continue to explore ways to assure
that the sacramental life of the church will continue. One way to approach
that is to train men to be priests, whose sole function will be the liturgy.
“The liturgy has become such a focal point of what we are all about.”
L. He talked about considering deacons and married or unmarried men who
are retired for this role of Mass priest. He refers to the examples we already
have, such as simplex priests. These priests did not have the faculties
to preach. Episcopalians have such a role. However, some consider the term,
itself, pejorative. The simplex priest describes what was frequently the
norm in monasteries.
M. The present reality in the diocese is that they have “circuit riders.”
He tells them to focus on two things: have “a good liturgy”
and smile. If they do that the people go away with a richness for the day.
The circuit riders often have to leave soon after Mass and will not return
for two months. The role of the priest as a community leader is compromised
by the fact that all he does is come in and say Mass.
N. He doesn’t hesitate to make decisions on what is pastorally effective.
“I had two priests that I pulled off the circuit because they were
very ineffective in liturgy.” When he would put an administrator in
the parish, some would come to him to request a priest. He would put this
question to them “Is any priest better than no priest?” They
would respond, “Yes, absolutely.” When he informed them who
would be available, they changed their mind.
O. “We have specialists in the church for all ministries, canon lawyers,
social services, educators.” Because of the resources available in
the urban areas, the people there are not yet aware of the shortage in the
rural areas. “Let’s get the model that does work now.”
He identified some married deacons whom he would have no problem ordaining
as priests. They have the necessary character and qualities. Even, he stated,
if we started with widowers. He acknowledges that this is just a germ of
an idea and would need to work out the details.
P. “The first pastoral administrators that I appointed were primarily
Sisters and they had the gift for community organizing without even using
the word. They were well educated.” Many people in missionary areas
are willing to experiment. As an example, Archbishop Hurley got permission
to allow members of other denominations to receive communion in some of
the remote areas because they didn’t have any ministers in the area.
The response of some of the people from the more urban areas would be that
it was all right, because of the needs out there but, “Don’t
do that here.”
Q. “The role of the pastor as the ultimate Father of the parish.”
R. Ultimately, in trying to develop pastoral structures, the question is,
“What are the principles that need to be operative and not necessarily
what solutions can you provide.”
IV. Role of Bishop as leader, especially in moral decision-making.
A. Archbishop Hurley described the role of the bishop, by using his own
experience. “I’m the boss.” He believes that by having
someone in charge, it provides the people with a sense of authority. He
didn’t make decisions in isolation but would engage the people and
enter into dialog with them. He would tell them what the church allows and
recommends. This was especially true in the area of medical, moral questions.
B. “In order to make any decision it is necessary to bring together
the various principles of the church, you can make a decision…when
we try to figure out what’s the right thing to do, it’s not
like I reject the law or try to disregard it. I think there are factors
and this is all part of making a moral decision and the most simplistic
example is what we all learned in grammar school, ‘What’s necessary
for mortal sin. Three things. If one of those things is missing, it is not
a mortal sin.” He gave a personal example. “Five woman in a
row came in and confessed they had missed Mass.” By the time he reached
the fifth woman his frustration kicked in and he asked why she had missed
Mass and she told him she had just had a baby. “That taught me.”
Archbishop Hurley believes strongly that all moral decisions have to take
into consideration a variety of pastoral factors.
C. John Paul II found a whole arena of opinions floating around after the
Second Vatican Council. The congregations in Rome began making decisions.
One such decision resulted in Archbishop Hurley receiving a mandate from
Rome regarding liturgical practices, the age for confirmation. He refused
to follow their instructions. “They were wrong. They had no right
to tell me about a liturgical regulation on the age of confirmation. It’s
none of their business.”
D. “In the process of bringing all the laws to bear we learn what
we can do or not do.”
E. Archbishop Hurley talked of the bishops’ meeting in Dallas and
their decision regarding the sexual abuse issue. He believes that they started
off on the wrong foot. “I proposed we have a public penitential service
to begin… Reconciliation should have been the basis for our response…We
did not come from who we are…We are charged with the mission of reconciliation.
That’s why we exist as priests.
V. On response to the poor and social justice
A. We need to discover ways to prompt people to take initiatives regarding
the poor and issues of social justice. “Giving money is one option
but there are other options.
B. He spoke of the success they had in Alaska dealing with issues of poverty
and social justice.
C. There is a question of how much are we called to identify with the poor.
We are not all called to be St. Francis. He admits that “As soon as
I say that I have to ask if I’m really being honest with myself. I
don’t have the call to be a St. Francis or a Mother Teresa and a lot
of people can’t do that.”
D. There are questions we should be raising, such as “How much do
we seek out the poor?” If you can’t confront poverty without
realizing that there is a social justice question involved in that, such
as how important the economy is to moral questions then you have missed
the point.
E. The answer to these problems includes many interrelated issues, worship,
spirituality, and prayer life, for example. In order to be consistent, you
have to address all these issues.
F. Both the parish and the school are marvelous structures for bringing
about change.
G. “The bishops are disinterested.”
H. We would be more successful in terms of poverty and social justice if
we retrieve the vision of the Second Vatican Council.
I. We have to ask ourselves, “What do you mean by the development
of conscience and what do you mean by the development of the church?”
This begins from a proper theological understanding of the church.
J. Archbishop Hurley spends a lot of time reading up on parish outreach.
Most active bishops don’t have the opportunity to do that.
K. How do we get our principles out there in a way that people can understand
them?
VI. On the USCCB
A. The Bishops’ Conference has lost much of its role and position
of leadership. The congregations in Rome are making many of the decisions.
B. “There is some validity in pulling everything to the center. There
is a need to strengthen the center. There are a lot of scattered things
out there. We have a few good examples of how necessary that strong center
is. The Episcopalians are trying to stay alive and have no one center they
can go to. The fact that we have a center is an asset. The question is how
do you balance that with subsidiarity. There seems to be less subsidiarity.”
C. The bishops made an “egregious mistake” by going to Rome
with the sexual abuse problem. That should have been handled by the conference
in the United States. “We should be solving our own problems.”
Organizations threatened with scandal began by trying to handle their own
problems.
D. The conference has no authority over its members and, therefore, is unable
to get a response that will commit everybody.
E. The Cardinals went to Rome. That’s where they came up with the
zero tolerance policy. The Cardinals were part of the problem. When they
came back from Rome they said there was no option but the zero tolerance
policy. The entire focus in Dallas was on the need to remove priests in
order to protect children. Archbishop Hurley would have preferred that the
starting point was the realization that we have sin in the world. Historically,
we’ve gone though similar crises in the church a number of times.
He wished that the starting point had been reconciliation. If you have no
reconciliation then you never deal with forgiveness, sorrow, etc. He sees
reconciliation as the key issue. It is his conviction that starting with
reconciliation would have led them to address all the issues that needed
to be addressed. Ultimately, he believes, the victim and the abuser have
to be reconciled.
VII On vocations
A. Avoid the terms education and formation. They emphasize programs only.
B. He doesn’t believe that the way to attract young people is by inviting
young people to join an organization.
C. Many dioceses have opted for houses of formation. He believes that the
house of formation approach is not the way to go. It is not the most effective
use of personnel.
D. He advocates developing an educational institute for vocations to the
priesthood. You would major in vocation to the priesthood. You could get
a degree in priestly vocations. “Now does a vocation go with it? Maybe
yes, maybe no.” It could be very fascinating. Apply for a grant to
begin. The institute would focus on vocations. Although you might address
other vocations, he would advocate concentrating on the priesthood.
VIII. On appointment and transfer of bishops
A. Archbishop Hurley used his personal experience to address the question
of the permanence of bishops. “I reached a point where I could sense
it wasn’t quite the same. I wasn’t coming up with any new ideas…How
long should a bishop be in a place? Is it forever? You can run into the
extremes.” It should be somewhat similar to the rotation of pastors.
B. Businesses and the military might offer us a model. When one person has
the situation set up and progressing, they often bring someone in to move
it to the next level. It’s comparable to what we do with pastors.
C. There might be a tendency to limiting your contact and input to just
one group with whom you feel comfortable.
D. Archbishop Hurley mentioned that generally when bishops were appointed
the only people consulted were bishops. Occasionally some laity were consulted.
A former Apostolic Delegate, Archbishop Jardot, consulted everyone. That
upset a lot of bishops. Archbishop Jardot consulted a lot of people.
E. Archbishop Hurley believes a bishop should be permitted to stay wherever
he is appointed. He does not believe a bishop should accept a diocese unless
he is willing to die there. There is something to longevity. He admits he
has some ambivalence about that position.
F. In discussing whether a bishop should come from within the diocese to
which he is appointed he used Alaska as an example. Alaska is an extremely
large state with a limited number of priests to choose from.