The Council of Elders:
Tapping the Wisdom of the Vatican II Archbishops
ARCHBISHOP PATRICK FLORES
Transcript of Interview
Transcript of interview with Archbishop Patrick Flores of San Antonio by Carroll Juliano and Frank Cunningham, Tuesday, September 27, 2005 at the Padua Center in San Antonio.
AF: Archbishop Flores
CJ: Sister Carroll Juliano, SHCJ
FC. Mr. Frank Cunningham
CJ—Archbishop thank you very much for giving us this interview.
AF—My pleasure.
CJ—What we would like to do is to touch base with you and to really tap your wisdom to look at what are some of the issues in the Church today and what you see as a response to them. You have a wealth of experience coming into leadership in the church after Vatican 2 and really going with that spirit.
AF—First of all it’s a complex of problems, not just one. I
think on the one hand that almost worldwide the number of vocations to the
priesthood and religious life have gone down quite a bit. From that angle
it’s a problem. On the other hand, in response to that, we have many
laypeople involved who used to not be. For example the diaconate program
has definitely grown and grown. In The Archdiocese of San Antonio we probably
have one of the biggest because we have 380 deacons here and about 70 in
a four-year training program. Every year we are getting a few more. Now
that are some who are ordained. Then there are many who just simply enter
ministry without being ordained. That’s a good thing. That’s
a blessing. In our Archdiocese we don’t lament the fact that we are
losing Catholics. On the contrary the Church is growing. For example, in
the last nine years something like 68 churches have been replaced with bigger
churches or have been expanded because the crowds just got that big. I don’t
know if you noticed but right next to Casa de Padres (his residence) we
have Seton church. They used to have a tiny little church on the other side
of the tracks but that was growing so much there that they built this new
one. And they built it in such a way that they can expand it any time. They
have three big masses there on Sunday and they just started having an Hispanic
mass once a month and that will continue to increase as the number continues
to grow. So from that angle it’s a great blessing, a great challenge,
a source of encouragement. Now a challenge that I see very serious is the
problems we have with violence as a result of drugs, alcohol, and broken
homes. The amount of violence we have in the state and in the archdiocese
is something. For example, right now, the institutions that are growing
the fastest are the jails and penitentiaries. And the number of people in
jail is just unbelievable. I will try to reach the inmates in any way that
I can but still it’s not enough.
Everyday the headlines are--somebody killed somebody for any kind of a crazy
idea. I think that on the one hand an ingredient really missing is cohesiveness
in the family, united families, prayerful families, They’re many who
are, but then there are many who are not. To me that is really, really needed
because that is where really and truly young people learn their most important
lessons. (Somebody used to say) the biggest teacher I ever had was my mama
and my papa. They never went to school themselves, but yet in a way they
were able to teach us. To me, they are the greatest teachers I ever had.
But there are too many kids who don’t say that. For example, we do
have a home, it used to be an orphanage, it is now a home for unwanted kids,
abandoned children, and
children whose parents are in penitentiaries. The kids tell me all the time
they don’t want to live with the mother because they have to live
with a stepfather. They don’t want to live with the father, because
they have to live with a stepmother. And they don’t want a stepfather
or a stepmother. That’s a tremendously big problem. That's something
we need to continue to work on: to empower families to see themselves as
the great missionaries of the Lord in the world, for themselves and for
everyone else. This is why I am happy we have the cursillio movement and
we have the charismatic renewal and we have some other movements like that.
I’m trying to think of another one that’s very much like the
cursillio. They are doing a tremendously good job. They have the movement
for men, they have it for women, and they have it for teenagers. But a lot
of that is needed so that more will go along the way.
CJ—You’re saying that will really help in terms of family cohesiveness?
AF—Oh yes.
CJ—Are there any other issues that you see facing our church.
AF—I mentioned those in general. But there are many particulars. We have problems but we also have blessings. It’s a matter of taking advantage of the blessings to help overcome the problems that are being faced.
FC—Are you saying that the problems and blessings are part of the
same reality?
That with a problem comes a blessing?
AF—Well, or they are running parallel. Hand in hand. Fortunately while you have blessings you also have disgraces and so on, you know, but thank goodness I think we learn from our mistakes, how to overcome them, and continue to work for the better.
FC—Could you give a practical example of that, from your own experience?
AF—First of all I think we have so many families being of service
to the church.
But that church workers—priests, deacons and others—have taken
advantage of families by abusing the children. I think that was a horrible
thing. Now I think it is coming to a halt because we have learned from that.
But none-the-less it was a horrible thing to happen. Why did it happen?
It’s hard to imagine. But yet it’s a reality.
FC—When did you retire?
AF—Feb. 15, 2005. I’m 75 and a half.
FC—So you were in the Bishop’s meeting at Dallas?
AF—No, I missed two or three meetings because of problems I was having
(with his
hearing and his inner ear which in turn affect his balance).
FC—Do you feel that meeting helped resolve the problem?
AF—Well, I think that we have come a long way. So often you can’t
tell because a
problem is hidden underneath there somewhere. Here (San Antonio) we made
it known that we are not going to be playing with it. If somebody referred
a case to us we were going to get into it and we were going to call the
police. And I think people know this diocese and that we are not joking
about that.
FC –could we go back to what you said about empowering the laity? One of the blessings of the vocation shortage was that lay people have come forward in various ministries. Do you think we’ve taking full advantage of the laity, or is there still room for growth?
AF—I think there is still room for it. But on the other hand thank goodness that we have opened up to the great extent that we have. But I think (garbled) in encouraging every one. Even teenagers, youth and so on, can be encouraged. Some have been encouraged but there’s room for a whole lot more.
FC—One of the events that precipitated our interest in speaking with many of you retired Archbishops was John Paul’s address to the bishops of PA and NJ during their ad limina visit earlier this year. He called for “creating better structures of participation, consultations and shared responsibility. As the former bishop of this diocese, how far (do you think) you can bring the laity into that participation with current structures?
AF—I think that we did everything we could. We didn’t do it all, but we did everything that we could. One thing I used to tell the priests “Look, we’re no longer dealing with ignorant Catholics. Maybe there was a time when that was the case. You taught them how to make the sign of the cross and that was about it. I think we now are dealing with Catholics who have a good solid background and we should respect that and take advantage of it. For example, in finances, they know more about finances than we priests do. In building buildings, the lay people know more about buildings than we do. But it’s a matter of consulting them if we’re going to build something. How much will it cost and how do we raise the money and that sort of thing. So in every area—I’m mentioning finances—but I think it in the area of other realities.
FC—Is there room for the laity in governance of the Church?
AF—Oh yes. You see they are already on many committees where they are in charge of, not the whole church, but of particulars. And they are doing a very good job.
CJ—You were talking about the growth in your church. You’re building new churches to meet a need. I’m not finding that in other areas of the country. What do you attribute that to?
AF—I think it’s the involvement of everybody and that everybody feels they are church and want to make others to be church. Then I think also, so may people have moved into this area.
Five minute break.
AF—I want to mention a question I was asked when I was in the process of retiring. Amazing what reporters would ask. “Were you ever tempted to quit being a priest?” Well, I thought about it (leaving the priesthood). I said I would quit being a priest when there is no more to do. However, it never got to that point. In fact there is more to do today than way, way back. So I didn’t quit for that reason. And I tell that to priests and deacons. If you ever reach the point where there is nothing to do, then quit being (a priest), because we’re about service. If there is no service to be performed, then just quit.
CJ—Were you at Vatican II?
AF—No.
CJ—But you came into office right after the Council?
AF—Right after that.
CJ—How do you think we’ve done implementing the spirit of Vatican II?
AF—As a whole we did pretty good. There were a lot of changes that we were not used to. And accepting those changes wasn’t easy, for priests and for laypeople. For example, a lot of lay people really had a problem with communion in the hand, and receiving communion from a layperson, from a nun, or somebody else. It took some time, but none-the-less they opened up. As a whole we’ve done pretty good.
CJ—Where have we failed?
AF—Well we didn’t do all that we needed to do.
FC—Could you be more specific on where we might have done better
in implementing
Vatican 2?
AF—Somehow in promoting more vocations to the priesthood and religious
life.
From every angle, I think we just did not do enough. Still the question
is whether women should be priests or deacons. It’s still a question
mark. And so we kind of stopped discussing it.
FC—Do you think we should still be discussing it?
AF—I think so.
CJ—It should still be on the table?
AF—We should ask the question why not?
FC—reference to Hurley’s wanting to present his point of view.
AF—I think it’s good to listen to both sides of the story.
FC—That’s interesting because there have been many documents and directives since Vatican 2 urging dialog and urging participation. How would you assess the bishops in terms of their leadership? Charles Morris, who wrote a book called American Catholic about six seven years ago, said there was a leadership crisis in the Catholic Church in America. Would you agree with that statement?
AF—Well anywhere you have some great leaders and some not so great. You have a mixture, a variety. And there’s some crisis. But there are also a lot of great lessons of people doing all kinds of great and wonderful things.
CJ—If you were back in office today, is there one priority you would
put forward
for the diocese?
AF—I think I would continue to promote education as much as possible.
Education
of the poor, of the blacks, Hispanics, and many women. We’ve done
a lot but we haven’t done it all. I generally use this principle:
American is the greatest country in the world. And it has no future for
the illiterate. What future do you have in America if you don’t have
an education? We want the people to have a better future. We have to help
them develop a better education.
FC—Do you feel that would help address this issue of lack of family cohesiveness?
AF—Oh yes. all the way. But I think along the way you teach people to respect what they become, what they are. And not to be taking risks. (Some people think) “I can do whatever I want because nobody will ever catch me.” Well we’re not living in that age anymore.
FC—It’s a difficult society for the church to do what you’re talking about because it (what he suggests) is counter cultural. We’re an individualistic society. And it’s fraught with violence and overt sexuality. It’s a tough world to function in.
AF—Yes, Well, I think throughout history there have been pros and
cons we seem
to have to deal with.
FC—You seem to take the long view?
AF—Yes, yes.
FC. Let me ask you one other question. I read recently where Catholics give 1.3 % of their income to the church. Not very much. Bible calls for 10% for charity.
AF—On the one hand we cannot push that enough. And very often it’s because, okay, they are giving to the church, but they are also supporting Catholic schools, also supporting this and they’re supporting that. That kind of thing. Maybe you put it all together it would come to that (10%). Maybe in some other place they give 10% to the Church; but that’s not happening all over. It happens in a few places. But I think many people make up for it by contributing to other causes.
FC—Much of what you call for it going to call for significant resources.
AF—Oh yes.
FC—And the church is in a period of diminishing resources.
AF—Yes. But we can always look for resources. When these tragedies happen, the two hurricanes, it’s amazing how the people responded with such generosity because they saw the cost. They were ready to give and ready to help. How beautiful.
FC—Is it fair for me to say you’re an optimistic man?
AF—Well maybe. I’m realistic. I see good things and bad things. C’est la vie, as the French would say. We have to none-the-less, keep going. We try our best and God will do the rest.
(He had been showing fatigue and now indicated he was ready to wrap it up).